[zank]

What i meant to say was that the way to make plex more user friendly was to mkae it easier to get the program going, rather than by removing power tools from within plex such as file manager.

wally007, on Mar 4 2009, 04:40 PM, said:

i get it but what about movies that are on thumb drives or moving them off thumb drive onto my NAS and renaming while doing it. not everything is downloaded , my friends bring their videos to my house all the time on their thumb drives and i never have to leave plex to copy it to my NAS and start watching it in seconds. Now if i ever upgrade i'll have to quit or hide plex and mess with finder.

[Isaac Ordonez]

caracos, on Mar 3 2009, 07:48 PM, said:

Please bring the file manager back or at least give us an alternative solution.

It will be back in the next version as I noted above.

[cyantist]

zank, on Mar 4 2009, 06:38 AM, said:

I think this is a good case in point...Library mode and file mode are different than file manager. if anything, yes, i agree file mode does cause users alot of problems (including me when i started) and should potentially be removed (from the movies/tv shows views atleast), as that causes the most problems with new users, albeit nothing that cant be resolved via a quick faq or forum search. so ultimiately, instead of having this gradient of ways to do it, it would be nice to have one extreme and the other, without all the little in between things...so file manager and library mode would be the two best options giving people the most flexibility.

As to ELAN's reply, (i don't know how to put quotes form tw odifferent people in the same post), we're doing defferent math here, but i guess rather than the numbers, it might be easier to explain in words. I was just putiting forward the nothing that you can look at software development, or anything creative for that matter, in two ways: Do your users define the product you create, or do you choose to define your users by what you create (i.e. build it and he who wants it will come). Right now, i find plex such a pwoerful and amazing softawre because i've been through all the growing pains, so waht seems tough to your current generation of users is very easy for me to do. If your 2nd generation defines the software going forward, their template for whats easy might seem tough to your 3rd generation of users...and so on and so forth. but ofcourse, everything in life is relative, and one could also simply see this as the benefit to the many outweighing the benefit to the few....which is noble in itself.

and just to bring up another point brought up repeatedly, people are talking about scripting, sabnzbd, etc etc...all these tools we know about here but that the average user does not. file manager would probably be easier to handle than all these tools for the newcomer. and it's out of the way enough that would anybody really bother with it? for the first 8 out of 12 months i've been using plex, i saw FM there, but never even touched it other than bringing it up once or twice, thought it not useful, put it away, because i was still in the process of setting eveyrhting up properly. but once i'd configured my media centre fully the way i wanted, and wanted flexibility with media i didn't want in my library such as one time media, i stumbled across FM again and found it to be one of the most useful features. sometimes i'll finish downloading something, from within plex go into FM and play the file, as i wouldn't want to bother exiting plex, renaming the file properly, putting it in source folders, re-scanning, and then playing, at 1 am.

as for the cost of the development, thats not something i can argue with...since the cost is the development teams time, which they donate, they are ofcourse entitled to deem any feature useful or useless as they see fit. the way i look at it, its a software someone is developing for their own needs and demands, and i'm a user that can choose to use the software if my needs co-incide with their needs.

zank, on Mar 4 2009, 07:31 AM, said:

i think where most users get confused is setting up sources. A way to tackle this might be to bring up a dialogue asking you where your movies/music is located, the first time you start plex....and automatically starting everything in library mode. if you want "simple", do you think the average user will even get to using the app store? or for that matter do you think the average user even knows how to rip his dvd's to hard drive, or alternate ways to get media? the ones that don't, are the ones that use frontrow. the ones that do, use plex in my opinion. Which by default puts them in the "not a bunch of monkeys" category, and have the curiosty to poke around and tinker with their software. as for bugs...i think plex is doing wonderfully, i haven't really encountered any bugs in a while, despite all the recent updates.

zank, very well said.. you bring up some great points and our thinking is clearly on the same page.. if i wanted to use a dumbed-down media center, i'd be using front row.. but i use plex because it is superior to front row in many ways, including the ability to browse media (or anything else) from within the application, among many other things..

i guess what i don't understand more than anything else is: what's the cost of leaving the file manager intact for those that want to use it?

but i understand it's coming back now.. well done..

[jayman978]

cyantist, on Mar 7 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

zank, very well said.. you bring up some great points and our thinking is clearly on the same page.. if i wanted to use a dumbed-down media center, i'd be using front row.. but i use plex because it is superior to front row in many ways, including the ability to browse media (or anything else) from within the application, among many other things..

i guess what i don't understand more than anything else is: what's the cost of leaving the file manager intact for those that want to use it?

but i understand it's coming back now.. well done..

Simply put, its just another thing the Devs have to support. Plain and simple. I would rather them be concerned about improving the library, upgrading the UI and adding online content than be concerned that a file manager that was intended to be run on a gaming system (that had no other way to manage files mind you) still works. In a list of 10 features you'd tell your friends that Plex has, the file manager is like number 39.

[cyantist]

jayman978, on Mar 7 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

Simply put, its just another thing the Devs have to support. Plain and simple. I would rather them be concerned about improving the library, upgrading the UI and adding online content than be concerned that a file manager that was intended to be run on a gaming system (that had no other way to manage files mind you) still works. In a list of 10 features you'd tell your friends that Plex has, the file manager is like number 39.

what is there to support? The FM works fine the way it is.. i'd call it a wrap as far as FM development goes.. and i wouldn't call it so much of a feature, but instead a function.. anyways..

[indiepants]

How about a more workflow oriented approach instead of a file manager pseudo-app... for example, put "Move..." in the context menu next to "Delete". This fits with a general design tenant of context menus primarily supporting advanced users. It adds no UI cruft for users who don't engage with the context menu (which most users should never need to do). From comments on how people are using file manager, this seems like it could provide some of the functionality they'd miss in file manager with a positioning that is organic and integrated.

[Nick Read]

cyantist, on Mar 8 2009, 02:37 PM, said:

what is there to support? The FM works fine the way it is.. i'd call it a wrap as far as FM development goes.

It still needs to be tested for every release; it doesn't matter if you're changing the FM functionality directly or not, it may still be affected by other changes made to the system. Maintaining features that are not necessarily used that much is bad for any software project. There is also "client support", helping out new (or experienced) users with issues they're having using the FM. It all takes time and effort that could be better spent on world domination, err, I mean, awesome stuff.

Personally, I don't use the FM. I assumed that nobody else would be either unless they're runnnig XBMC on an XBox. I'm more than happy to move things around using the Finder rather than attempting to rename shows with the Apple Remote. In fact, it's really surprising reading the number of comments that say the FM is for advanced users - if you're that advanced, why are you using the FM? It's extremely limiting compared to the Finder (which is itself limited compared to solutions on other OSs) and I don't see how advanced/power users aren't pulling their hair out.

If there are a number of people that still want this feature, then I'd suggest that Plex provides new extension points for plug-ins like the FM to be integrated (maybe they already exist?). The FM could then become a separate community maintained plug-in and distributed via the App Store. It allows for the Plex developers to focus on where they want Plex to go, but allow for "different" features to be maintained by those who require/want it.

[cyantist]

Maybe we use the file manager in different ways. I use it more as a 'browser' than a 'manager'. I'm sure you could do some filing with it, but that's what the finder is for. But it's great to be able to browse all of your volumes (and play what you are browsing for) from within plex.

Anyways, this is getting out of hand now. It's coming back and I think that's great. I will update to .13 when it's out, but I use FM too much to be without it, just like others who like having it around...

[wally007]

Nick Read, on Mar 8 2009, 06:56 AM, said:

It still needs to be tested for every release; it doesn't matter if you're changing the FM functionality directly or not, it may still be affected by other changes made to the system. Maintaining features that are not necessarily used that much is bad for any software project. There is also "client support", helping out new (or experienced) users with issues they're having using the FM. It all takes time and effort that could be better spent on world domination, err, I mean, awesome stuff.

Personally, I don't use the FM. I assumed that nobody else would be either unless they're runnnig XBMC on an XBox. I'm more than happy to move things around using the Finder rather than attempting to rename shows with the Apple Remote. In fact, it's really surprising reading the number of comments that say the FM is for advanced users - if you're that advanced, why are you using the FM? It's extremely limiting compared to the Finder (which is itself limited compared to solutions on other OSs) and I don't see how advanced/power users aren't pulling their hair out.

If there are a number of people that still want this feature, then I'd suggest that Plex provides new extension points for plug-ins like the FM to be integrated (maybe they already exist?). The FM could then become a separate community maintained plug-in and distributed via the App Store. It allows for the Plex developers to focus on where they want Plex to go, but allow for "different" features to be maintained by those who require/want it.

your problem understanding why FM is important to people is that you assume everybody uses Apple remote. I use Iphone remote where keyboard is fast and easy and my GF uses bluetooth apple keyboard with apple remote. Mouse is hardly ever touched and plex never exits full screen , exactly the way Media center should function, i think. If i have to bother exiting plex , messing with finder and then recalling plex then that;s just lame. even though there are ways to automate tv shows - movie copying , i download alot of sport shows that need to be renamed before they're moved to their final destination. FM is also useful when someone shows up at my house with flash drive or external HD.

anyway FM is coming back and i cant wait to upgrade from.7.10. thanks developers

[Jam]

A file manager does not belong in a media center. It made sense on the Xbox, where XBMC had to perform many tasks normally associated with an OS, but the Mac's file management tools are already perfectly capable. Playing files on thumb drives doesn't work as an argument for me - you can just add your Volumes directory to the Videos menu, and browse from there.

The bottom line is that while right now leaving the file manager there doesn't have a negative effect, it's not going to stay forever. We're moving towards a new system for accessing content, and will not be spending time updating the file manager to support this. Similarly, when we start revamping the UI, none of us want to spend time re-implementing the file manager using the new interface, wasting time that could be far better spent working on something else.

So far, 13 people complained about the file manager being removed. Sorry to be blunt, but you represent less than 0.05% of our users - it shouldn't be hard to understand why we want to spend what little time we have available working on features that benefit the majority of our users.

[indiepants]

Jam, on Mar 8 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

So far, 13 people complained about the file manager being removed. Sorry to be blunt, but you represent less than 0.05% of our users - it shouldn't be hard to understand why we want to spend what little time we have available working on features that benefit the majority of our users.

Like I mentioned above, even if a general purpose file manager is wrong for Plex that doesn't mean some sort of file management functionality is. I hope you have a plan for the latter if you've already decided to get rid of the former.

Issues seen in a small number users will often highlight a tremendous opportunity for experience improvement even if the other users aren't using that feature in its current design. I'm an interaction designer at a dotcom and my design team runs into this kind of thing quite a bit. One group of users with a higher tolerance for complexity will use a rough feature that's not very streamlined and give you great insight as to how to refine it into a mainstream feature.

That last point is important... mainstreaming is not just about reducing, it's about refining.

[pmcd]

Jam, on Mar 8 2009, 07:16 AM, said:

A file manager does not belong in a media center. It made sense on the Xbox, where XBMC had to perform many tasks normally associated with an OS, but the Mac's file management tools are already perfectly capable. Playing files on thumb drives doesn't work as an argument for me - you can just add your Volumes directory to the Videos menu, and browse from there.

The bottom line is that while right now leaving the file manager there doesn't have a negative effect, it's not going to stay forever. We're moving towards a new system for accessing content, and will not be spending time updating the file manager to support this. Similarly, when we start revamping the UI, none of us want to spend time re-implementing the file manager using the new interface, wasting time that could be far better spent working on something else.

So far, 13 people complained about the file manager being removed. Sorry to be blunt, but you represent less than 0.05% of our users - it shouldn't be hard to understand why we want to spend what little time we have available working on features that benefit the majority of our users.

I beg to differ. You may not think it makes sense, but that's your opinion. I couldn't function without it and I think it should be obvious to most people why it might be important.

You can dismiss those 13 all you like. Many have been with Plex from the start and have been advocates for Plex in the Mini community. One of the reasons has been the great community built up by the developers and users. However, with attitudes like your's I think it's time to move on. Do what you like with the .05% apps.I find this tyranny of the minority unacceptable. If the developers don't want a feature then fine. It's their thing. However to keep rattling on about how only .05% of the users don't matter and so to heck with us takes the cake. You can keep your media center and please whomever you want.

Geez, even Apple has never come out and said minority views were pointless because they apparently represented so few people as to not matter.

As far as that .05 number, you'd better hope it represents a good approximation of users who don't mind their favourite minority feature being removed because of not enough use.

What a pain...thank goodness there are alternatives.

philip

[opet]

Different people have different thoughts on what a media center is and should be. Personally, a media center isn't a new OS that can do everything, it should rather do a few things (Plex actually does a lot) really well.

@pmcd: I think you misread Jam's comment. I don't read it as "you lot don't matter", but more as "if 100 people want feature x and 13 people want feature y, then with the little time I have I will focus on feature x"...

And for the future: It wouldn't be possible to move the FM into a python plugin?

[Aargh-a-Knot]

Devs...just so you know, some of us completely understand where you're coming from.

It seems that when making decisions regarding a project like this, you're going to piss some people off sooner or later, no matter what you do.

I've been trying to wrap my brain around the file manager, and while I agree that features such as moving or organizing your files are better done in the OS environment and do not necessarily belong in a media center, there is one that does seem to be handy. Being able to point Plex to a file that is not scanned and scraped into one's library, and just play the dang thing, would be a very helpful feature to have. This is actually one of my peeves with iTunes. In my Windows days, it was very simple in Winamp to point to some music files and play them without making a big production of it. I have seen others try to migrate to iTunes, and this is the feature that seemed to really turn them off. This feature is the only reason that I ever wind up using DVD Player, as you are able to just "point-n-play". Adding such functionality to Plex might be handy, and stripped of the rest of the file manager, should not be too hard to maintain, especially if it was a plugin. Imagine that when you go to where all the other video plugins are, there's one called "Just Play it!" that would allow you to browse for a file and do just that.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject. I know you guys are going to do everything in your power to make Plex the best that it can be.

Keep up the good work!

[chriszammett]

file manager - what's file manager?!

[Jam]

opet, on Mar 9 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

@pmcd: I think you misread Jam's comment. I don't read it as "you lot don't matter", but more as "if 100 people want feature x and 13 people want feature y, then with the little time I have I will focus on feature x"...

Thanks opet, that's exactly what I meant. Everyone working on Plex does so voluntarily. We all have day jobs & do this in our spare time, and therefore only have a limited number of hours we can spend working on Plex, and want to use what limited time we have working on features that benefit the majority of users.

Take the UI as an example - when we start redesigning it, we'll be focusing on features that many thousands of users want to use, rather than just a small group. Each view within Plex will take a long time to design and implement, and spending that amount of time to support a feature that a small fraction of users want seems very counter-productive. The link to the file manager was taken out as we honestly weren't aware that anybody used it, and we wanted to begin steering the UI towards the features that we intend to continue supporting. The file manager is not one of them.

[pmcd]

Jam, on Mar 9 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

Thanks opet, that's exactly what I meant. Everyone working on Plex does so voluntarily. We all have day jobs & do this in our spare time, and therefore only have a limited number of hours we can spend working on Plex, and want to use what limited time we have working on features that benefit the majority of users.

This does make sense. Don't for a second think that I don't appreciate the work being put into Plex. It's a great application and worth buying a Mini just for it. I also appreciate there are only so many hours in the day.

I still feel FM is important and most people who use Plex are almost by definition power risers in the Mac world. The ability to play or quickly move in and out files that are not part of fixed sources is important.

Anyway, Plex is still a great media player. It's by far my favourite, but I also like Front Row & XBMC so I'm taken care of one way or another.

philip

[wally007]

opet, on Mar 9 2009, 11:38 AM, said:

Different people have different thoughts on what a media center is and should be. Personally, a media center isn't a new OS that can do everything, it should rather do a few things (Plex actually does a lot) really well.

@pmcd: I think you misread Jam's comment. I don't read it as "you lot don't matter", but more as "if 100 people want feature x and 13 people want feature y, then with the little time I have I will focus on feature x"...

And for the future: It wouldn't be possible to move the FM into a python plugin?

make that 14. My girlfriend is just mad at me for upgrading to .7.12 and now she's forced to use dreaded finder to move her tv shows :-) ouch

[migueld]

Wow I'm surprised at the support for the File Manager. While I don't use it much, I understand the needs of those that do. I think the selling point of the file manager is that you can do file managing from your couch via the remote. You don't have to stand up look for a keyboard, or mouse, get out into Finder mode, which gets messy.

For what it's worth, I do hope that there isn't much more if any "dumbing" down in Plex. I'm personally all in favor of a redesigned UI, but please keep the power in it! I would say the vast majority of Plex users, either are experts at torrenting, usenet, handbrake, etc, so I'd humbly suggest: do not underestimate the user base.

With respect to the small number of people speaking up in this thread, I think it's wrong to conclude that they represent a small percentage. There is a large percentage of users who never speak up, but experience the issues nonetheless. I wonder how many of us ever posted on Apple's site regarding Front Row...

BTW, I think there are other areas that could use some dumbing down: navigation, video audio picts, playback. My mom has some trouble using those

[cheekyboy]

When was the last time you saw a bug reported on file manager?

and as for files view....thats been removed too now (unless you hav ethe main menu option enabled)

where will it end???

Think Set Top Box and remote control functionality not PC and mouse/keyboard....they have no place in the lounge! I know, my girlfriend told me